Episode 3: Inside Local Louisiana Politics with Jennifer Greene

Good morning everybody. This is David Vicknair and Brad Scott and welcome back to the Overruled podcast, Overruled brought to you by Scott Vicknair. We’re excited to be with you here this morning. And we have a couple of really exciting hot topics and Brad, I’m going to let you jump right into your hot topic for the day before our guest that comes on in a little bit. Shared thing. Last week, I think I scared y’all a little bit with the whole TikTok thing and all the big data watching us.

What caught my attention last week or in the last couple of days is this letter from the Future of Life Institute. I don’t know if y’all have seen this, but Steve, Elon Musk, Steve Wozniak of Apple, plus 1100 other big tech leaders have signed onto this letter. They’re calling for a six-month ban, a moratorium on AI systems being developed. I don’t know if you’ve seen all the news with the chat GPT and all those things out there, but this new technology and AI stuff is kind of, they’re touting this as being game changers as far as society and technology, things like that. But essentially they’re asking for this time period for everybody just to kind of stand down. They’re kind of scared that this AI technology is kind of the horse has kind of gotten out of the barn, well too far. And they’re wanting the government to come in and maybe regulate this stuff. Figure out who’s going to have power to control this stuff, to legislate what it can and cannot be used for. It’s very interesting. You know, what their motives are at this point, whether you believe them at their face, that they really just want to get ahead of things, or whether this is possibly the greatest marketing letter ever written to, you know, drum up, you know, people being scared of this technology and run and invest in it.

Either way, this is kind of a big deal as far as what’s moving on right now. One of the things that they say, they, they want seized training of any AI systems, that are more powerful than the current GPT four. And they’re citing about runaway AI and threat it poses to humanity. It’s pretty ominous, caution there. And the first thing I thought of is if you think of all the movies from Hollywood over the last few decades, Hollywood has been scaring us about this, basically forever. Even going back to like the 1960s, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Stanley Kubrick’s classic sci-fi thriller. For, you know, sure everybody’s seen it by now, but, the computer on board, HAL, takes over, starts systematically killing the whole crew. You know, movies like that, movies like The Matrix from 1999, that’s where everybody was living in a simulation basically. So the question is, are we finally getting to that point where technology is, reaching that point where the computers are going to take over potentially? It’s a little scary. You know, the stuff that they’re warning about, and you know, they’re asking for government intervention to come in and to, to protect us from all this. One of the lines I saw, they’re saying that the decisions about AI must be delegated, should not be delegated to unelected tech leaders, and that more powerful AI systems should only be developed once we’re confident their effects will be positive and the risks will be manageable. Kind of reminding me of Uncle Ben from Spider-Man. If remember he said, with great power comes great responsibility. So, you know, where are we going with this? You know, what’s going to happen? You know, the one thing for sure, the little bit I’ve gone down this rabbit hole with chat GPT and things of that nature, this really is a paradigm shift as far as technology.

If you’re a business owner out there, this is something you really need to get ahead of. You need to start incorporating it into your business, because if not, your competition definitely is going to be doing it. And, you know, this is innovation. You need to get on top of it and use it as best, best you can. But it’s, it’s kind of scary that these people are saying, you know, we need to basically freeze this for six months. That’s a pretty bold statement coming out of big tech. I guess one of the first things I have, Brad, thinking about this is to what extent you saw that either Elon Musk or Wozniak have financial interests adverse to the founders of chat GPT or in them. Well, I think all these guys, and I didn’t look into it that deep, but I think all of them have their hands in financially. And, you know, if you’re the guy that has some of the best technology and you want to stop everybody else from kind of developing it to get a, a leg up, you know, the question is whether there’s financial motives or they’re really worried about humanity and the computers taking over at this point. Sure. I mean, at some, in many occasions, one of the first places I look to is the old adage, follow the money, right? So I’m curious to see if their statements or aligned with their interests financially, either being adverse to the people who have now cornered the market initially on AI and chat GPT, or if they’re aligned with them. We have, you have seen, right? And I hate to just hit Elon Musk with that and assume bad motives. For example, in the Ukrainian, Russian incursion, that he donated his Starlink technology, significantly to ensure that Russia was not able to cut off Ukrainian communications through bombing. So, we have seen Elon Musk perform some altruistic, non-financially motivated. But follow the money. Yeah, no doubt. And interestingly enough, there is 1100 these tech giants that signed off on this letter. The one person that was notable not to be signing it was the founder and owner of the Open AI, what has the chat GPT. So, I don’t know if there’s a, a threat there that they’re perceiving, possibly, you know, whether, you know, what the really are their motives here, but if nothing more, it’s really putting this stuff in the spotlight and everybody’s definitely talking about it and, we’ll see what happens with this. Definitely something to keep an eye on. I think you made a good point too. It’s like one of the things we get in the legal, development, organization magazines that we’re both members of for the law firm. And the communications that are really challenging us to think critically on business growth and how to manage the business effectively. Is this introduction of chat GPT, AI involved with chat GPT, and how it can be integrated into different businesses, whether it be a law firm, an accounting firm, anywhere. A medical company, a construction company. And I think the, the main thing I’m seeing and reading about it and seeing different business coaches comment on it, and business development leaders comment on it, is you need to start getting connected to it and understand it now. And figure out in small ways, how can you connect it to your business? Not necessarily jump into the swimming pool head on and do everything all at once. But how do you get into it and really understand it and figure out small, practical ways, you can use it to leverage, your business now. And then as you become more familiar with it, maybe do more down the road. It’s a tool. Like anything else in technology, it’s a tool. You need, and it’s here to stay. It’s not going away.

So it’s something, I think we all in, we’ve played with it a little bit in our practice. You know, for copywriting and for things like that, but it is an amazing thing. You know, the little bit I’ve played with it, it’s quite scary what it’s capable of doing when you start feeding information into it. So it’s really going to change things. So, it’s here to stay. So, you know, if you look at it. And you have, David. Well, my hot topic for the week, I hate to be duplicative and jump right back into the recall again. Hopefully, it’s the last time we have to talk about it. But there are so many legal issues surrounding it. I just couldn’t resist. So, recall, election, LaToiya Cantrell, the local registrar, as our listeners probably know now, who have been following that really big topic locally. Has certified that the recall effort did not meet the required threshold, which was set by a settlement, which we discussed on the last show, at roughly 44,000 signatures.

In the last show, Brad, you and I were discussing interventions. Why has the mayor not intervened in this lawsuit to stop a settlement before the train got ahead and too far ahead of her. Maybe she was ahead of the train. Well, we’ll get to that in a second. So what she did do is her attorneys did file two separate lawsuits. One was filed in the 19th Judicial District Court in the East, parish, East Baton Rouge. Seeking, to invalidate that settlement by C. C. C. C. L. P. As unconstitutional under Louisiana law. For our listeners who don’t know, typically when they are large administrative law or legal challenges involving state representatives and the governor, the attorney general, the Secretary of State, those are typically filed in the East Baton Rouge parish because that is the exclusive venue for a lot of those actions to be brought. She filed them and I, Mandamus. They are seeking to invalidate the settlement as unconstitutional. And also, filed a nullity action and a petition to vacate in Civil District Court, seeking to nullify and vacate that settlement as unconstitutional. For our listeners, since, who may not be lawyers, since the recall is now effectively over. We think, which we’ll get to in a second. These two lawsuits from what I review would be what is called legally moot. Meaning they no longer can be judicially right for determination because the underlying issues surrounding the recall are over, so they’re likely going to go away. She did file suit, though. She did not intervene. And in the Civil District Court case, the second issue flying around since our last show was that it had been disclosed that Judge Medley, who we are routinely in front of in Civil District Court, we’ve already had a trial in front of her. She’s a new judge. Had actually signed the recall petition, but did not disclose it to the litigants in the recall case. And it raised questions about whether that would merit her recusal, under state law related to judicial recusals for not being able to be impartial. And I can just say being in front of Judge Medley, a handful of times now, she’s very accommodating, a very nice judge.

She works well with all the attorneys who are in front of her and has gotten good reviews. And then since those issues were raised, she in fact signed an order which asks the Supreme Court to appoint an ad hoc judge. For our listeners, an ad hoc judge is essentially someone who’s appointed on an interim basis to potentially resolve recusal issues or things of that nature in the state Supreme Court is typically the party who is always appointing judges to determine whether a judge does or does not need to be recused. And so she signed an order asking the Supreme Court of Louisiana to weigh in on that. That is likely also moot now, that the recall is sort of fizzled out and did not meet the required signatures. Available, but I thought it was just a very interesting issue as to whether or not her signature on the recall itself merited recusal. Some experts on judicial ethics and the judicial canons, which govern judges have commented that probably not, but that it would have been best practice for her to disclose it to the litigants. It’s an appearance of impropriety. So, I think it’s a good move on her part, very smart. And it’s something I would expect of her, you know, having been before her. She doesn’t want to tank the system anyway. So if she signed the petition, she said she’s probably not the right person to oversee that action if it was to go forward. I think it was the right move. Whether it was legally required of her or not, I’m not sure. But definitely since she was one of the named petitioners in the application, it does make a whole lot of sense to go that way. So, we got the mayor’s lawsuits that were filed. We have the recusal issue that comes down the pike since our last show and discussing the recall. And then the mother of all legal issues on the recall is that the recall organizers, as a quick primer, had 180 days under Louisiana law from the filing of the petition to recall and elected official with the Secretary of State to collect the signatures and then submit it to the local registrar of voters, who in Orleans Parish is Sandra Wilson. They submitted all of the, they submitted a batch of signatures, 34,625 on that 180th day on February 22nd. And that initial batch, which the registrar had 20 days to go through, there was a failure rate of about 21.5%. So they were approximately 27,000 signatures that were accepted as valid. Under the Secretary of State’s settlement, they needed approximately another 17,000 on top of that 27,000 to hit that 44,000 number to trigger a recall vote. After the 180 days, state election law also allows what is called a five-day or commented on as a five-day grace period that there can be more signature submissions of voters who would like to add their name to the recall, but did not sign initially. And curiously, without much explanation from the recall campaign whatsoever, on the fifth day of that period, they showed up with a second batch, which had approximately 32,421 signatures on it. And submitted it to the register.

The register went through those and said that about, I believe it was 26,207 were listed as rejected for other. And the explanation given by the registrar’s lawyer is that five-day period has a different requirement than the 180-day period. And two of the primary ones is the five-day period requires the month, day, and year of your birthday, where the 180-day period just requires you to put the year of your birthday. And the second is that the voter has to show some intent in the five-day period, directing the register to add them to the recall. What it looks to me like from reading all the news articles and scanning as much as I can, is that they had another 26,000 potential signatures that they just didn’t turn in on time. Oh wow. Which is somewhat shocking considering that they had spent over a million dollars on this recall effort. And I come to that conclusion because if you look at the 34,421 signatures that were submitted in the second batch and that five-day period, there were specific reasons that the register gave to reject some of them. For example, the, there were listed reasons for about 62, 6,256 of those signatures and her letter to the governor on why they were rejected. The reasons cited from duplicate signatures to non-legible signatures to those signed without a witness or a date. And, in fact, some of those 6,000, about 12 of them, were voters who she found to be deceased. But for the other 26,207 signatures, keep in mind, they only needed 17,000 more signatures. Of the other 26,207 signatures, they were tossed out for the reason other. And I have determined, just my impression of the situation is, and there’s been experts, including Joshua Spivak, who’s a California-based attorney and national recall expert, who has commented that it just looks like they were turned in late. And if you would have applied the same 20% rejection rate on those signatures to the prior signatures submitted, that they probably would have hit the 44,000. Maybe even the 49,000 they needed before they reached the settlement with the Secretary of State to trigger the recall. So, I believe the register, from what I can see, and obviously we’re jumping to conclusions here based on available news media reporting and comments that either the register, the governor, or the register’s lawyer has made, it looks as if they just turned in half the signatures late. And there was a specific legal application for how those signatures in that five-day grace period are treated differently than the 180-day period. And the register’s lawyer basically told her, they didn’t meet that criteria, so they have to be rejected. Didn’t dot the eyes, cross the teas.

Those little things make a big difference. And as, you know, as we talked about on the prior show, because there’s so little case law developed related to the application of various recall on Louisiana, it really is an open question about whether her legal determination on the treatment of those signatures is correct or not. There have been election law experts and other legal commentators on that, who have said that the statute seems clear. If anything, I’ve learned in doing this for a long time, there’s not that much that is clear. So I don’t think you can rule out a legal challenge from the campaign, probably through something like a writ of mandamus to directing the register to give reasons for why she rejected these 26,000 signatures. But at this point in time, it has failed. And short of any type of legal challenge against her determination on those 26,000, it appears that her determination was probably legal appropriate because the statute does require two different things in that five-day period that are different and distinct from the 180-day period.

They just missed them. So the momentum has definitely shifted here. This may be the death knell to this recall campaign. Yeah. And so on the merits, no commentary. What I can say is legal issues flying all over it. It’s an interesting legal scenario from recusal issues, from writs of mandamus and nullity actions, all the things that we routinely see that maybe the listeners don’t really care about because it’s not cases they have invested interest in. But because the recall was such a high profile campaign, it became there were a lot of legal issues of interest that were flying into it. Well, when you throw the legal system and politics into the same boat, you usually get a mess. So, here we are. No doubt.

All right, our guest today on Overruled is a close friend, and lawyer at the firm, Jennifer Greene. Jenny, and as known by all of her friends, is a very well-known and she’s gonna probably recoil when I say this, but prominent attorney, and involved in local politics and friend of many. Really excited to have Jenny today to talk about her perspective on her law practice, how she got into her law practice and her road and journey, and her price of law, as well as her involvement and local politics, her perspective on politics, as well as her involvement in philanthropy and her and what drives her and motivates her to be super involved in philanthropy. Jenny, welcome to Overruled. Brad and I are excited to have you as a guest today. Well, thanks for having me. So first, I was hoping you could tell our listeners a little bit about your road to becoming a lawyer. What motivated you to become a lawyer? How did you get where you are today? Well, it started when I was very young. My father was a trial attorney. I’m actually a fourth generation attorney. And I’d seen throughout my life the impact that a lawyer can have on people. And I’ve told this story before, we were checking into a hotel in Nashville, Tennessee, and I was probably around six, five or six years old. And I went inside with my dad to check us in. We, when we went to check in, the man behind the counter just asked my dad, so what do you do for a living? And my dad said, well, I’m a lawyer. And this man got very serious and was like, I love lawyers. And I had never heard anyone say that to my dad before. Most people are like, I hate lawyers. Usually the opposite. Exactly.

So the man told a story about how his uncle was injured in an accident at work and how everyone had abandoned his uncle. His wife had abandoned him, his kids had abandoned him, and the only person who stuck with him was his lawyer. And this man had such admiration for the lawyer, his uncle’s lawyer. And just told my dad, man, I just really appreciate what you all do. And I remember the feeling that I had walking away from that desk and just being like, wow, I want that feeling again. And so I grew up watching my dad, in court. I’ve also told the story before where judges would frequently stop the proceeding and ask who the small child was, sitting on the bench, and it was me, obviously. And so I just grew up watching lawyers and having such great admiration for the difference that we can make in people’s lives. And that’s literally all I’ve ever wanted to be. And I know from being in good friends with you and talking a lot about this, I think your dad was a critical and motivating force in your journey to becoming a lawyer, and was a very accomplished and successful trial lawyer in Arkansas. Can you talk a little bit about his accomplishments and his influence on you becoming a lawyer? So, as I just told the story about, you know, my dad being a lawyer and me watching him track cases, I also got the opportunity to spend a lot of time watching him interact with his clients and seeing the things that he did. My dad did both civil litigation, on the plaintiff side, and criminal defense. And there were, so we I definitely met lots of characters when I was younger. Not, not short on characters around our house. And my dad’s clients were, essentially, he would take them under his wing in any way he could. We had some of his clients, you know, who wanted to pay my dad and didn’t have money. And so they would ask if they could come mow our lawn. And it was just great seeing my dad with those people. And then hearing the stories, my dad, had 10 capital murder cases in a row. And I remember those days and how exhausted my dad was after those trials, but he was literally fighting for someone’s life. And, you know, and then on the civil side, he was fighting for people to get justice, whether they were injured by, you know, an overturned train spilling chemicals in neighborhoods or someone who was injured by a defective vehicle or things like that. And just seeing my dad fight for to get justice for those people, it just meant the world to me.

So, that’s my dad is definitely, my dad’s an influence on my life every day. And in most things that I do. My mom is as well. I often say that if I can be one tenth of the person that either of my parents are, then I’ll be doing all right. And that comes up a lot. We see it a lot of people who are successful. They all have mentors that they’ve kind of followed in their shoes with. You know, our guest last time, Mahachi. Same thing. And it seems like your dad was that person for you, which is great. That’s nice to have that, you know, as a father figure and also as a mentor and lead you through that path and ultimately you became a lawyer as well. Have you had the opportunity to mentor other people like that as well, to, pass it on? I’d like to think that I have. You probably have to ask them. I do have, one person who was an associate at my former law firm, and we, to this day, are great friends. In fact, I just went to visit him, his wife in New Hampshire, a little over a month ago. And he jokes that he often asks himself in his practice, well, what would Jenny do? And it keeps him on the right path and keeps him from making some critical mistakes that some other attorneys may make in his practice. So, I’d like to think that I pass it, pay it forward or pass it on.

I also had a great mentor at my former law firm. Hopefully, he never hears this because I don’t think he needs his ego, Steve Lane, does not need an ego boost. A lawyer with an ego. Imagine that. Yes. So, he’s like my older brother, but he also really mentored me in my practice. And, and I would say we learned a lot from each other in practicing law and how to practice, but I mean, he would throw me in the deep end. My first hearing, all by myself, he was out of town and was unavailable. By design? Yes. And so it was like just me on my own, you know, and he threw me in the deep end. Luckily. Yeah, I was like, luckily I tried it water. It was a simple motion to be clear. It was a motion to continue. But if I’d lost it, we would have had to go forward that day. Thankfully, I didn’t lose it. Well, that’s, I think we’ve all been there. And for the, I think the way you learn and practice, whether it be in law or something else, just to get in there and make some mistakes and kind of fumble your way around. Some people call it fake it till you make it, but you got to make the mistakes and learn the lessons, right? Before you can really become good at something. One of the things that I know of you that you’re very involved in Jenny is philanthropy is very important to you. And while a lot of the stuff that we talk on this show is connected to business development and leadership and life, I think philanthropy is a critical aspect of that sometimes cannot be thought of. What, what is it about philanthropy? What is your motivating force behind being involved in the different philanthropic efforts that you’re in? Well, it’s gonna go back to you. I learned it from my parents. I can’t, I do not know where this phrase originated, but I learned it from my dad and it was like, if you are, and I’m gonna butcher it a little bit. If you are privileged, you should build a bigger table, not a higher fence. And that’s something that always stuck with me. And when I think about lawyers, we, by our nature, we’re privileged. We’re privileged to have the education we have. We are privileged to have the opportunities that we have. The respect that our profession gets, not always, but the respect, I think we should get.

To me, that it is almost essential to be involved in your community and give back to your community when you are in a position of privilege. I mean, it’s to me, it’s almost abhorrent if you don’t. And so, I think having your finger on the pulse of what’s going on in your community has to be, has to include being involved with nonprofits. And we’ve some amazing nonprofits here in New Orleans. I’ll I’ll make a little pitch for an organization called Emerging Philanthropists of New Orleans. It’s probably the coolest thing I’ve done, well, one of the coolest things I’ve done since I moved to New Orleans. They take 50 young professionals and put them, divide them into teams of 10, it may be now maybe 60, so don’t hold me to that, but 10 people per team, and each team picks a topic area. So it could be the environment, it could be healthcare, it could be, education and youth development, and they teach them how to evaluate nonprofits, like they teach you how to read, the nonprofits’ tax forms, they teach you how to do a site visit, they teach you what questions to ask on these interviews, and then at the end, each team gets to grant out $10,000 to a local nonprofit. So, this organization has been around for, I think 15 years now. You know, it started here, it’s it’s something where it not only teaches you about nonprofits around the city, but it also teaches you how to be a responsible giver, and like a responsible philanthropist. I believe in voting with your dollars. So you want to know where your money goes. Teaches the process. 100%. Yeah. And I think sometimes people want to contribute to the programming of a nonprofit. Like they want to be the sponsor of a race or the sponsor of, or they want to, you know, be on the committee for the big gala. But a lot of times what nonprofits need help with are basic things like, toner cartridges or printer paper or those kinds of things. And that’s one thing that Epno really tries to teach, these young professionals is that you want to, meet the organization where it is and meet the needs that they have, even if it’s not something sexy like a race or something like that. So, philanthropy is just something that I believe in. I like to volunteer my time as much as I will and willing to donate money. And I think that’s something that as a profession, we need to be more focused on is giving of our time. A lot of people are willing to write a check, but they’re not willing to go, you know, scrub down a shower at a new home built for a musician in this city, or they’re not willing to spend their Saturday, you know, folding clothes at, you know, Dress for Success.

So, I think those are things that are as a profession, I think we should be more focused on giving back to our communities. It’s something I try to do. Don’t and I find, I personally think in life, there’s always people who talk, but actions are a lot different than talking. Action speaks louder. I think from a leadership perspective, besides like what we all probably feel like when we get involved with philanthropy, there’s a great feeling that you get from being able to give back and help and paying it forward. But isn’t there, and I’m curious your perspective on this, my perspective on it is, there’s some level of obligation on people who own businesses, who are professionals, who are community leaders, to act and to be leaders as it relates to philanthropy, because that sends a message irrespective of what comes out of their mouth. If they’re willing and commit their time to an organization, like I know how involved you are with Dress for Success and as well as your involvement that you’ve been involved with Komen and other organizations like that. What level of it, from your perspective, is important to show leadership, that your involvement is and let your actions speak words. Well, I think a lot of organizations want lawyers in particular to serve on their boards, for some obvious reasons and some not so obvious reasons. And so, board service is, is important and organizations need attorneys, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they have employment issues. Sometimes they have contract questions. Sometimes they need you to negotiate a lease. But we can’t forget our own humanity and forget that there’s also value in, for example, I really enjoy volunteering at Dress for Success. In fact, I need to sign up and do that soon. For you, you go in and you get to help someone who’s going on a job interview, pick out clothes, pick out accessories, which I love accessories, so. And so, I’ve really had never realized until I did that, the difference that clothing makes in someone’s self-confidence. And so, it I had maybe I’d realized it, but I had taken it for granted for so long. And just seeing someone for the first time having what they consider to be a professional outfit and just watching the transformation. Changes their mindset completely. Absolutely. Changes their posture. Yes. That’s something that I thought was so cool is, is they stand a little taller. They walk a little taller. And then helping them prep for an interview, I’ve done mock interviews at Yep, which is another nonprofit here. It’s it’s a phenomenal organization that helps young people and so, they had me come in and do mock interviews with some of their graduates. And it’s called Youth Empowerment Project, if anyone doesn’t know it. And just watching these young people and how excited they were about going on job interviews. And it just reminded me a little bit, sometimes in this profession, Brad and David may disagree, but I feel like we lose a little bit of our humanity sometimes. And doing things like that really reminds me of what it’s all about. I think it also helps, being a lawyer to keep your finger on the pulse of what’s happening. And so, I think interacting with people, you know, in different situations helps you, kind of know what’s going on in the city. And helping to give those feel a boost. That’s the biggest thing. Absolutely. Well, and the phrase that Dress for Success and some other organizations uses is it’s a hand up, not a handout. And so, it’s like the whole rising tides lift all boats. I mean, I can keep throwing out cliches.

Sure. But no, it’s true. I think it really resets your values. I kind of look at it as that. Like, we get so caught up to, you’re talking about in the practice of law, but we have listeners who may operate different types of business, whether it be industrial based, and other types of companies, and you get so caught up in running a business or in your job and in routine things. Sometimes you need a little reset. Prioritization of giving back to the community, give, family time, focusing on spending time and allocating it to your family. And I find at least, and I’m sure you do to some extent as well, that philanthropy helps those values get reset and really give you some broader perspective on things that you get so caught up in the rat race every day that you kind of, kind of. But I do want to shift gears a little bit because I know you’re super involved in local politics. Many times behind the scenes. That’s where I prefer to be. That I know you prefer to be behind the scenes. What is the, from your perspective, what is your involvement, why, why do you say so involved in, local politics? What is your passion there? Tell us a little bit about that. So, I wish that I could put up billboards or figure out some other way to, to remind people how important state and local elections are. That things that impact your daily life that don’t really happen in DC. They happen in your city council chambers or as some people in Louisiana call it, the parish jury. They happen in, your school board meetings. They happen in board and commission meetings. It’s, it’s the things that people don’t realize, like, traffic flow or, all of the things that just impact your daily life. Judges. Oh, if I could just beat a drum all day about how much judges matter. And it’s so hard to get people to pay attention to judicial elections. But for me, again, it goes back to being invested in your community and being involved in your community is like knowing who makes the rules. You know, a lot of people think the city council, I mean, when people are running for city council here, they get asked about, you know, all kinds of issues that they have zero control over. And so, I always think about that, it’s like, know who makes the rules for what? Just that, yeah. Know who makes the rules for what it is that you care about. And I think that a lot of times that gets lost because people just want to talk about our Congressman or the president or senators or anything like that. But so much happens on the state and local level that people just don’t realize. And so, that’s why it’s important to me to be involved, because back again, being involved in your community. That’s an interesting point too, because I mean, a lot of people are captivated with all the stuff on the national news scene, from CNN to SNL, MSNBC, Facebook, all that stuff. And focuses on big national issues. But those aren’t the things that really affect us in our everyday life. It’s really the smaller things at a local level and at a state level, they’re going to have the biggest impact on our families and our loved ones and our businesses. And those are the easy ones to overlook.

Most people look right past those to the evening news on everything that’s going on elsewhere. Absolutely. And I think that people don’t realize how much judges matter until they have to go in front of one. I’ve been out with different judges, you know, campaigning with them and waving signs with them. And there are people who will, if we’re out waving signs, pull over and talk to the judge about the case that they had in front of them and what the judge did or didn’t do that they did or didn’t like. And so, I think until people are in front of a judge, they don’t realize how important judges really are. Until it’s very personal when you’re standing in that courtroom, you don’t really pay attention to it a lot of times. Right. And so, if all the listeners out there, please pay attention to your judicial elections. Or they’re going to, we’ve talked, I know we’ve talked about this before, but for you, for example, you have been handling family law matters for the bulk of your legal career. And so, somebody in your, for example, in a family law matter, divorce, a custody dispute, that is, if you don’t resolve it, that’s going to be decided by a judge. Brad, who manages in the early 200 hundreds of estates a year, successions. When somebody dies in your family, if there is a dispute, that is going to be decided by a judge. And so, those are just two areas that a judge will make decisions, potentially in your personal life. With huge implications. Huge implications. Right. I can promise you, you’re more likely to interact with a local judge, then with Senator Kennedy or Senator Cassidy from Louisiana, right? Absolutely. And tell us a little bit about in your involvement in politics, I know you’ve done like some work representing PACs, and as in your legal practice, but have also been involved in politics. What are some big lessons, takeaways that you’ve learned from your involvement over the years in politics? Ooh, there’s probably so many. But I’ll try to. I know that’s a hard question for you. I know, I’m like, gosh, I could talk for an hour about that. One of the things I’ve learned and I guess you learn this in anything, but like trust your gut, but verify. So, a lot of times in politics, people will tell you what you want to hear or what they think you want to hear. And my response to that is usually some sort of verification. I’ve also learned to be deliberate in what I say, because you never know when that’s going to come back to you. And know who you can and can’t trust. That’s really important. But I’ve always been someone who speaks their mind. And I think, you know, some local politicians who I’m friendly with will tell you that I definitely speak my mind when I talk to them. I may not speak my mind about them in public, but I certainly tell them when I talk to them individually. And I think that what I like to focus on is electing the right person, not necessarily, electing someone who agrees with me on everything, because that’s never going to happen. I don’t even agree with myself sometimes. So, you know, that’s not going to happen. But I think electing the people who are going to be willing to make the hard decisions and people who are going to keep, oh no, this is going to make everyone roll their eyes, but keep their promises. David’s rolling his eyes right now. Yeah, you knew I was going to roll my eyes at that one. But it comes down to character. It does. It does. And I think that the more that you, pay attention to what’s going on in state and local politics, you can kind of figure out who is or isn’t going to be an effective leader or who you can or can’t trust. And those are the people, again, these are the people who are making the decisions. They’re making the rules. So, I think that’s important. I also think the thing about working in politics is that you have to think about the impact you have. I mean, our state and local leaders have a huge impact. And judges have a huge impact. So, that’s another thing that I’ve learned is watching the impact individuals can have on a larger population. Yeah, I had a follow-up question on the trusting part of that.

Trusting a politician, is it an oxymoron? I don’t know. But I wonder how you navigate that process, specifically, because the example I would give is in a business, when Brad or I or the firm is thinking about working with a particular vendor, like this morning, for example, I was on the phone with a lawyer from Florida, asking about his experiences with this vendor over the last six years. There are different things in due diligence, either in acquisitions of businesses, in working with third-party vendors, things like that, that you can go and verify. Hey, is this person who they said they are, what is their track record? That type of thing. It’s a method for vetting them. Absolutely. And politics, many times you don’t have that, right? Because somebody may have not been in politics and is just jumping in, especially at the local level, that could be an entry point. But like how do you navigate this? I know this about you, you are a trusting person. You are a good person. So, like how do you navigate that process in politics of trusting when you’re almost. Frankly, I would say, it’s being set up to be disappointed. Well, when someone has been in politics, you can look at their voting record. That’s where you can really see, if a person is willing to make the tough decisions, or in our state legislature, it’s interesting to see when someone was absent from a vote. So, a lot of times if there’s a tough issue, Are they ducking it? Correct. And some of them do. I don’t want to say a lot of them do, but a lot of them do. And that’s very telling. It is very telling.

Like for example, if someone is constantly talking about how important, water issues are and then they don’t show up to a big vote on something to protect, a certain body of water from pollution or something like that, that tells you like they’re not putting their money where their mouth is. So, I look at those, if someone hasn’t done that, I look at what they’ve done in the community. For example, have they been involved with nonprofits? What have they done for those nonprofits? Have they been involved, with their profession is and what they do with that business? For example, if they own their own business and they have, you know, four employees, but their employees are all their children, you know what I mean? Like I’m I’m going to take note of that, for better or for worse. I’m just going to take note of it. But really looking at what a person has done. Like you said earlier, you know, actions speak louder than words. So, looking at what they’ve done in life, not just what they’re saying to me on the campaign trail. Because like I said, a lot of times they tell you what they think you want to hear. And too often that the case is, people have convenient opinions in the moment. Because they’re trying to get elected or what not. And when you look at their history and the things they’ve done over their life, it doesn’t line up. It’s incongruent. Right. So, and usually you can’t keep up that farce for too long. Usually. Right. But in politics, you see it a lot and they try their best to keep that face on. And sooner or later, you hope it catches up with them. Now, now one thing I don’t like is when someone maybe they’ve had a path in life and then they get additional information and new information. And so, they change their mind on an issue. And for some reason in politics, that’s seen as a bad thing. Like people, you know, the whole flip-flopper and all that. And to me, that’s actually what good leaders do. Is correct. When you’re presented with new information or different information, it might change your opinion. Like, I don’t want politicians who just dig their heels in and say, I will always XYZ, because XYZ may not be what’s best for the community at some point. Right.

Don’t you think that shows some level of emotional intelligence, being able to take different facts, apply them to a situation and say, you know, I was maybe wrong about this before. Absolutely. And now it’s, you just dangled the carrot of emotional intelligence in front of me because you know I love to talk about that. But absolutely, I think that is exactly, nail on the head. It is a level of emotional intelligence to be able to say, I was wrong on that issue or maybe, you don’t even have to go that far, but say, I felt this way or I believed this at this point, but then with this new information we have or this change in, you know, whatever happening is happening, I realized that I need to shift gears. I need to change my opinion on that. Or for example, in this city right now, a hot topic is short-term rentals. And so, maybe someone was like, I am completely against short-term rentals for every, you know, XY for the entire city, blah blah. And then when they’re faced with new information about how short-term rentals are helping single women be able to purchase homes, because they have some, you know, passive income from the short-term rentals, maybe they’re like, well, maybe they aren’t that bad for the community, but we need, we need to figure out a way to regulate them. And so, I think that, you know, is one of the things is just being willing to, be open to taking in new information and possibly changing your mind. And being flexible too. I mean, and I, they too is, they’re not there to impart their opinions. They’re supposed to be representing people. Right. So, as that changes too, and the people they represent’s opinions change and their feelings on different issues, they need to be able to modify and change with that as well. Even though that sometimes may be incongruent with what they thought was a deep-seated belief at the time. Right. No, you’re absolutely right. I mean, that’s to me, that’s the ideal way to have an elected official behave, but it doesn’t always happen. And in their defense, a lot of people will give them grief if they try to change their opinion. Yes. Of course, if you do. Right. I wish that would stop. Yes. I wish that would stop. Now, one of you tell us, if you had to read one book, favorite book, what book would you recommend? And this is gonna make me sound kind of sappy. I love the book, The Notebook. I’ve read it a bazillion times. In fact, I think the first time I read it, I was crying and, it woke my roommate up in college because I was crying reading the book. So, yeah, I have, I have a soft side. Not everybody sees it, but. All right, well, last question we have for you today, Jenny. What is your, same question we give to every guest, what is your superpower? What is the one thing that you think you are uniquely gifted, talented with, you have one, you have many. But the one thing that you think really helps you accomplish a lot of the things that you’re able to do in your law practice, philanthropy, and in politics. I think that I’m good at connecting people. So, for example, I am usually good at figuring out who would be good friends. I’m usually good at figuring out who would be good in business together. Or connecting people to nonprofits that they would be interested in. Or I, some of that is like, being intuitive or emotionally intelligent, is like knowing, kind of being able to pick up on people.

But I think that is a unique talent I have of just connecting people. I’m also very generous with my network. I say my network is yours. If you’re a friend of mine, like, you know, there’s anyone that is in my network you want to meet, I’m happy to do that. And not everyone’s like that. Not everyone shares their network. But I think that’s one thing I’m good at is, is connections. And maybe that’s a superpower. If so, maybe I need some sort of superhero name. Well, I think it is a superpower. You are really good at it. I know it for a fact. And maybe we just get you a cape. Would you like a cape? I think I would. Because you know, I love accessories. So, that would just be a new one to add to the mix. Well, thank you so much for being with us today, Jenny. You know, close friend of ours, great attorney. We, we love having you at the firm and as part of the firm. And I really respect a lot of the things that you’re involved in and in both philanthropic efforts and your behind the scenes involvement in local politics and having a positive impact on our community. It’s been a great discussion between that discussion that we had with you and our hot topics. Hopefully for good, we have put the recall, the legal issues surrounding the May recall arrest, along with the terrifying, back to back terrifying topics from Brad this week of chat GPT and how aliens are taking over our everyday lives. I thought we had a fascinating discussion today and it was an awesome show.

Thank you for being with us, Jenny. Thanks to all our guests for being here today. It’s Overruled with Scott Vicknair and we look forward to seeing you next time. Take care everybody. Bye. Information is for illustrative purposes only and does not constitute tax, investment, or legal advice. Always consult with a qualified investment, legal or tax professional before taking any action.