The Business of Podcasting with Robert Ingalls of LawPods

Good morning everybody, welcome to the Overruled podcast. This is David Vicknair. I am flying solo today, hosting the show alone, and a great guest, Robert Engles, who is the founder and owner of LawPods, podcasts for owners. Robert explains himself as a recovering attorney. I got to giggle at that when I read it. Professional speaker, as well as the founder of LawPods. We’re really excited to talk to Robert about how he went from being a practicing attorney into creating a law podcasting company for lawyers. So, first off, welcome to the Overruled podcast, Robert. Thank you so much for being with us.

Hey, I really appreciate you having me. Anytime, I can connect with lawyers that have their own podcast and talk about podcasting, I’m happy.

So, let’s start please, if you don’t mind, Robert, because I’ve got limited time with you and you’re an expert in podcast and podcast marketing and how to drive users to podcasts. I want to jump right into the meat of this. What are one or two things that people can do to their podcasts to drive listener growth from your perspective that they’re not doing right now? If, for example, somebody starts a podcast and they can’t get users to listen. What, what are they doing wrong?

So, the first question I’ll usually ask is, what, why have we made the podcast? What’s the intention behind the podcast? Cause I have, I have clients to fall into a few different buckets. The big two are nurturing leads. They’ve created this, and they are discussing things that prospects want to know. You’ve been in a severe trucking accident, you have, you have some questions. And they’re pretty routine. We know what people want to know. We’re making content around that. And then we’re doing more thought leadership, creating information for referral sources. Like I’m going to talk about a state planning and how you can do it better and whatever. And then other lawyers are going to listen to that. They’re gonna get to know me, they’re gonna be, I’m gonna be in their network. They might have things that are complicated that they’ll bring to me. Whatever. I see this a lot with trial attorneys. And so I wanna know why. Because if you’re doing the first one, you aren’t really looking for subscribers. You’re not really looking for someone who’s gonna listen to every episode. It wouldn’t even make sense. I mean, it might just be somebody with a random curiosity, but that’s not really gonna turn into business. And so with the first one, you wanna make sure that it’s out there, it’s available for anybody who comes looking for you. People land on your website, cause it tends to be part of your funnel nurturing. Instead of something that, you know, like a podcast like this, you could expect subscribers. You could expect people to listen and go, I like this. This is valuable for me all the time. And so for the first kind, we wanna make sure it’s on our website. I mean, that kind of applies across the board, but it’s on the website, easy to find on the website too. Don’t bury it five stacks down. And then in your social feeds, you’re making clips from every episode, the valuable parts too, that make people go, oh, that’s for me. Oh, I want to listen. I want to know more about that. And you’re putting them in your social feeds. And making sure that everywhere people are looking at you, that information is there. And then when we’re looking at subscribers, trying to drive subscribers, we want to be showing up where our prospects are. And one of the excellent, excellent ways to do that is that I think a lot of people are leaving on the table is podcast guesting. Is get on other podcasts that are talking to people who are potential listeners for you. Because then you already know their podcast listeners. So you’re not having to convert them to the medium. And all, and they’re in the app. And then the host of the podcast is going to link you in the show notes, if you have a podcast back to that. And so now boom, now they’re on your podcast and they know who you are. So that’s one really easy one is go on other podcasts and then you’re networking with the podcast host, growing your network, right? Like right now, we’re doing that. We’re getting to know each other in real time. And then same thing applies with the first one, clip it up. Make sure it’s on YouTube and it’s full version. I mean, every time I see these polls, like 25% of people want to watch their podcasts on YouTube. I mean, that blows my mind because I think that’s a crazy way to consume the content, but that’s what people want. The interesting, if I could just jump real quick in Robert, just thought you made some great points, like, and I wanted to dissect the two types, right? You talked about like lawyers who are niching into like a specific content for podcasts, like maybe talking about like if you’re, let’s say you’re a nursing home, negligence lawyer and you’re doing all kind of topics on nursing home negligence. And doesn’t have to be lawyers, right? It could be any business who wants to start a topic. You’re not trying to drive subscribers under that model, but it’s still a useful use of a podcast, right? Because you’re developing yourself in and as an authority in that particular niche. And so then people see you as an expert in that niche, even if you don’t have a subscriber base. So that’s like one model besides like building out a podcast where you would have regular subscribers. Is that, did I understand that right?

Yeah, absolutely. And it makes total sense to me, right? As opposed to like a separate podcast where maybe if you want to start up a podcast and you’re focused on like getting subscribers, like who’s gonna listen to a podcast solely dedicated to nursing home negligence nonstop. You know what I mean? Like it’s just not gonna happen.

Right. And that’s what people will say. That’s one of the first questions is, who would ever listen to a lawyer’s podcast? And I tell them, nobody.

Yeah.

Until. Until the bad thing happens. And they need answers. That’s when they listen, and that’s when it’s valuable because they had something bad. And now they want to feel better about the bad thing. And that’s where this content excels is we sit down, we tell them I know where you are. I understand. I have walked hand in hand with a thousand people down the same path that you’re about to walk. And they get that good feeling. Like, oh, I like this person. I’m gonna call them. And now they’re yours to lose. And that’s really for any industry, right? I mean, even if you’re like a contractor and you’re thinking about starting a podcast, if you plumber, whatever it is. You could do the same model and it’s still getting that authoritative content out there for your specific business when somebody does need it. Even if you don’t have regular subscribers that like they’re building your building yourself as an authority on YouTube, on podcast channels, Spotify, etc. So I really loved the distinction of how you made that because our podcast, what people are listening to right now is totally different. We did not. We really developed it and the concept is to have regular followers and to highlight different community leaders in our community and develop relationships in the community and have an active user base, right?

Right. And that’s, you know, that’s a different kind where you’re, you’re branding. It’s very, it’s a branding exercise for people are getting to know you. You’re networking with other people. And but you’re also a lawyer. And so you become their lawyer. The person they know that does this thing. Right. And I love that angle and it’s a it’s a long play. Right. It’s part of a larger strategy where you’re using, you know, it’s more of similar to the billboard approach. You’re people are going to remember you when they need you.

Right. Absolutely. Now, let me ask you this, Robert, about podcasts, because you’re the expert, we only have you for so long. It seems like there’s a lot of podcasts. I mean, I love our podcast. I’ve always feel, I run into people, friends, family, different people in the community, other lawyers who make a comment like, oh, I listened to this episode today and I loved it. And it really always humbles me that we have active followers and listeners and so I love that as the show has grown over the last year. But somebody asked me the other day and said, man, there’s so many pod. I’ve been thinking about starting a podcast. There’s so many podcasts out there though. Or are there that many? Like, can you give us some insight on that?

I mean, so depending on why you’re doing it, to me, it’s almost a silly question. And I don’t say that to disparage anybody. But I think, why would you have a website? Aren’t there a lot of websites out there?

Yeah.

And, especially for the first kind of podcast we discussed. Because that’s your podcast. That’s like saying, well, I already John already has a PI podcast, why would I do a PI podcast? I mean, that’s you know, think about substitute the word website. That’d be insane, right? And when you’re looking at that, that’s content marketing. You can only do content marketing for yourself.

Right. And, you know, but when we do look at the second one, I think it’s a reasonable question. But I still think the answer is a hard no. There’s not too many because no one’s making your podcast. And especially one like yours, community focused, you’re talking about things from your perspective. I think that there’s always room in the marketplace for something good, something interesting. But one thing, not, and this is outside my opinion. We see the number of podcast listeners going up and the number of shows those listeners listen to going up. An example from, you know, an anecdote, anecdotal example from my business. I produce several trial lawyer podcasts that are made for trial lawyers. And when I’m at conferences and I hear from people, do you have any more? Are there more? I like to listen to more. You know, we had one when we started out and that one does really, really well. And then we started working with another one. And that one jumped quickly to doing very well. Because there’s that appetite for this content because there’s not much of it. And we’re launching three original shows around trial lawyer content this year. Because the appetite is there for in their niche. Which is the thing I love about podcasting is you can go very, very niche. Because the cost of producing them compared to traditional media is so low. And so you can make all these different things. And if you’re getting, depending, and this is highly dependent. You can be getting 50 listens on a certain kind of show every episode and that’s gold. You could be getting a thousand. I mean, honestly, a thousand in this kind of niche is pretty strong. If you’re getting that consistently. And that is good numbers. And so there’s so much appetite out there for this content and a lot of them are bad.

Yeah.

And so the, there’s this competitive landscape, especially in niche areas, like law. There’s a lot of people doing it, but how much of it is really valuable that people really want to subscribe to. It’s that number’s kind of low. Yeah, that’s a really interesting comment. And when you kind of break that down and think about it, so like the trial lawyer type podcast that you just mentioned. You know, you think like that’s so niche, but so interesting because there’s gonna be thousands upon thousands of trial lawyers across the country who would be interested, right in their free time, weekends, evenings, like listening to some niche podcast shows to get like little nuggets on like opening statements or closing statements or cross examination and tips and tricks that they’re kind of going along in their practice journeys to become better attorneys. And I don’t think for our listeners, right, that’s like an example of law, but you could do that on anything. I’m just thinking through like any industry that you could niche that down and you’d have thousands upon thousands of people across the country who would want to listen to that super niche, targeted type of thing. But I guess my next question would be like, aside from like niching the topic of the show itself, how are you seeing really effective podcasters talk about like and explain to their users and remind them specifically what they do. So even if the show isn’t like necessarily on their niche, that their listeners are really top of mind and understanding what it is they do for when they may need them.

That’s a trickier one because you want to make sure you’re doing that. A couple ways you can do it easily is have the company sponsor it, obviously sponsor it. There’s voice over. There is a mention of it. There’s a mid-roll that’s just really quick, five seconds, 10 seconds, that just talks about the law firm. But also the people, you know, let’s say we’re doing a law firm, right? But the people who are having the conversation are telling stories as well. They’re talking about their lives, their personal lives, their professional lives. And weaving that into the content that you’re discussing. But making sure that it’s branded. That every time somebody listens, upfront, they’re hearing the name of the firm. And what they do. And so they’re just, it’s every single episode, it’s being reinforced. Instead of maybe mentioning it once at the end. Always upfront. Because you’re not always going to keep people. You know, if you look at your Apple does a really good job of showing you, you know, kind of like YouTube does of where people start to drop off. And podcasts are just like videos. You’ll get more people upfront and they’re not all gonna finish it. I mean, the more that finish it, the better. But, make sure you’re leading up front. That way, even if somebody does drop off after five minutes, they’ve already heard it. So always be mentioning who you are and what you do. I mean, that’s something I learned when I was a lawyer and when I first started learning how to network is tell people who you are and what you do. Like have your little elevator pitch. And that works really well for branding yourself on a podcast. If it’s especially if it’s going to be the kind of thing that is a branding exercise, that’s not specifically about what you do.

Yeah, and as you use it, as a marketing tool for any company, right? Law firm. I mean, you’re in the law space. But really this is applicable to anything. Any type of company who would have a podcast. One of the things I love about it, and it’s not something you would like intuitively think about, is that it does, because of the longer format, give you the opportunity to be vulnerable and to tell a little bit of your story about your life and get to people see more and more of your personality and both video and sound. And I think to a certain extent, like the psychological side of marketing, right? Is that it kind of builds a further relationship and deepens the relationship with the people who are listening to trust you more in the event that they do need you. Have you seen that? Would you agree with that? Are you aware of any type of studies or anything like that kind of backs that up? It’s just something I’ve always intuitively thought about the show. And I’m curious to have your perspective on it.

I don’t know that I could pull any studies out, but that’s actually a good idea. Go dig for some of that and use that in marketing.

Right.

But definitely. It, it absolutely does and I see it. When I see it when I go places, people who have listened to a bunch of episodes I’ve done, they will talk to me like they already know me. And then when I go to conferences with some of my clients that have big followings, you’ll see the way people come up to them and talk to them and have relationships with them. One of my clients just released a book. And one of the prospects I was on a sales call with a couple weeks ago was like, oh yeah, I listened to that podcast. I, I really like it. And they’re a general trial lawyer. They don’t do any trucking work. But they bought my client’s trucking book, just because he wrote it. That speaks to the way that they’ve developed that relationship with him. They know him, they like him, they trust him and they want to support him. Just because even though they’re unlikely to even directly benefit from that book themselves. And what I also have my clients tell me that people tell them they listen to the podcast when they come in and they’re having the consult and they’re like, oh yes, I, I remember you heard about that. And it does have that effect. And I would just say for anybody listening, think about your favorite podcast host or a couple. If you were sitting in a room and this has happened to me, it’s startling. And they started talking behind you and you couldn’t see them. You would know immediately who that was. And one of the, the first podcast conference I went to in 2017, this guy John Lee Dumas was there. And he does the show called Entrepreneurs on Fire. And I’d listened to, I don’t know, 100 episodes, I bet at that point. He was in the room and I heard him talking. And it just, it was weird. The second thing that I noticed it was really weird. I’m like, man, he talks really slow. I listen to my podcasts on 2X. And so this is like the first time I’m really hearing this guy like, Wow. But there, even hearing him and then meeting him and seeing him, I had all this trust for him because I’d spent so much time listening. You know, you, one of the things you’ll see is people will get into scandals that are kind of famous. And, you know, scandals if you will. But you don’t see them start to lose their audience, their core audience. And one of the things like, I heard Joe Rogan say this. And it really hit was somebody’s like, why aren’t you losing listeners? He’s like, I’ve said some dumb shit. And throughout my life. And some of that’s been on the microphone. And he’s like, but, the nice thing that I like about this medium is you can’t really hide in here. You know, I’ve been on here for tens of thousands of hours. And some people have heard almost all of it. He’s like, they know that sometimes I might say something stupid, but they know who I am. Because they’ve spent time with me, they got to know me. And that’s so powerful because that’s right. You sit here long enough and people get a sense for who you are. They hear your voice, they understand you, they get your sense of humor. And so they go, that, that person’s for me. I have a, a client in Florida, he does PI work and he curses a lot. And he does it on his podcast. And when I first started working, I said, do you want us to cut those? And he was like, fuck no. I don’t know if I’m supposed to curse on this podcast or not.

We don’t give a fuck.

Love it. But he said, he was like, that’s who I am. And that’s who he’s gonna be with his clients in the room, three years into the case when they’re discussing whether they should, you know, try, try the case or settle it. This is who he is. They’re going on this journey together. And if that’s gonna put somebody off, they’re not his client.

Yeah.

That’s not what he wants. But more frequently people go, he’s like me. He’s normal.

Yeah. I really like that. And one of the things that I like in it too, is if you think about any industry you’re in, whatever it’s law, something else. You go to these social events, you get involved in different organizations, whether it be local chambers or different, industry groups specific to your business. And then, you know, you’re involved in volunteer organizations, some of that is civic being civic minded and wanting to give back. A part of that is wanting to build relationships and network and develop and have relationships that can help grow your business. And what you’re really doing there, if you drill it down, is, yeah, I like to say all the time, everything comes back to relationships, both in marketing and branding and also in operating a business internally. But you’re developing those relationships externally so that when somebody does need you, they trust you. And so really a podcast doing the same thing. It’s everything you’ve been talking about. It’s your developing trust with the user base who’s getting to know you, who knows who you are because they’ve listened to you, shit for me now. It’s been 100, I don’t know how many hours of show we have now after the year of doing the show, but we’ve got lots of hours of content here and now where people get to listen to Brad Scott and I talk to all kind of interesting people. And I’m hoping that they’re starting to just get a little sense of who each of us is, bad, good, and indifferent and trust us if they need us. And so that’s kind of the way I look at it from a marketing perspective, right?

Yeah. And they, they start to see you as a real person. Because you’re having these conversations. Earlier you said it, you open up a little bit. You talk about things that are a little close. And people hear that and they it makes you, makes you so relatable. And that is the kind of thing that, you know, you hear this all the time, people do business with people they like. And when somebody feels like they get to know you and you’re relatable, that creates that sense of like, okay, well, let’s call them. That’s the first person I can think of. I kind of got a good feeling for them. They play golf. You know, that’s what I tell people, tell your story too. Weave in stories about who you are and what you do. You know, I took my daughter to swim practice. Whatever. I have a daughter who can swim. That’s annoying. Those meets are way too long. You know, like just all these little bits of relatability are, tie people to us and, and kind of endear them to us. Let’s spend now and talk a little bit about your career journey. It’s really interesting to me, because I’m not in the same situation, but a little similar. I mean, you started out as a practicing lawyer. You have your law degree, you are an attorney. But you’re obviously no longer practicing. I am still semi practicing, although I don’t really manage a docket. I’m really managing and operating the law firm at this stage, which was also an interesting transition for me. And so for all those people kind of thinking about reinventing themselves or spinning off with different degrees and doing something different. Why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about your journey to going from being a practicing attorney to now operating and managing a startup, law podcast company.

Yeah. I mean, mine really started with mental health. It was I, I didn’t really understand that at the time. But I was just, in it. I’d been practicing for a few years. And I’d just gotten married. And I was really hanging by a thread. And I didn’t realize how small that thread was until I had the benefit of hindsight. But I was just every day was chaos. And you were at a big law firm, right, Robert?

No.

Oh, okay.

Definitely not. I don’t know how I would have dealt with that. I mean, it was just me and a couple employees.

Okay, got you.

And, but even there, it was just, just very difficult on a day-to-day basis to manage the clients. And figure out, I mean, figure out how to make money. That.

Yeah.

Was not something I had. I ever figured out in law. It wasn’t something I figured out until I got here.

Right.

And so I’m struggling with money. I’m struggling managing my docket. And, a lot harder than it looks, isn’t it?

It really, really is. And there’s so many different things to keep up with. And then if you find yourself, like I did, practicing probably a little bit too wide than you should be. There’s so many, every little area of law, even niches inside of niches are complicated. And everything’s got this minor little rule to it. And you missed it and now it fucks something up. And, and you look and for me, I understand now. But then I’d look around and I’d see my colleagues and everybody seemed to have it together. And I couldn’t figure out, like, why is, why am I uniquely spinning out here? And everyone seems now, obviously they didn’t. A lot of them don’t. That’s why so many mental health resources exist.

Right.

So I’m kind of hanging on by a thread, not getting any of this figured out. And then a couple months after I got married, my wife just drops a bomb on me. She’s like, I want to have a baby. Like now.

And when we got married, that was very much future people’s problems. I don’t know what we were thinking because neither of us were spring chickens at that point. But at that moment, it just landed on me like a ton of bricks. Like, I cannot have another thing like this right now. And I freaked out a little bit. And once I kind of got through that, mostly unbeknownst to her, I think, I sat down and I made a list of things that had to get together. If I was gonna make it. And I’d like to say, I’m gonna quit the law, I’m gonna chase something else. It was, it took years before that came to fruition. But it started with a list. And at the top of that list was money. If I can’t figure this out, nothing matters. And I listened to a book about money from Dave Ramsey. I’d never really thought much about the concept. And just the little bit of information I got in that book was super helpful. So he has another book about leadership. I listened to that one, because I’ve got an office and I got employees coming in like hours late with no explanation. And I don’t know how to handle it. I just, I’m not managing people well. And that book said, you should listen to our podcast. And at this point, this is September of 15. I’ve never listened to a podcast. So I listened to it. It’s fine. But I’m in the app, I’m looking for other recommendations around the same ideas. And I listened to another one called Awesome Office. And they’re not publishing anymore, but the first guest was Tom Bilyeu.

Sure, so I’ve been at it. I got my first client in November ’17, and that was kind of by accident. The company didn’t have a name. I was just out there doing it. I had a podcast at my law firm, and I’m in the community, I’m teaching it at community events and co-working spaces. And another lawyer in the community sees me doing it, and he comes up to me at a networking event and says, “Can you help me?” I said, “I’d love to. I’d love to help you do that.” He says, “Can you come by in the morning?” Great client, right? Let me give you some money right away. And that client gave me the opportunity to just see what it would be like. Let me make it for someone else, and I loved it. And within a month, I had decided, okay, because I had a few irons in the fire. I was still trying to figure out what I was gonna do. I had all these business ideas I was chasing. And, a few things happened there, but one of them was money was running real tight because I decided to wind down my law firm. I wasn’t making money anywhere else. And my wife was like, and that baby she told me about existed at this point, and was expensive. Very expensive roommate. And so I decided, okay, I’m gonna follow this one thing. Not just the roommate, somebody got to keep alive. Which you don’t really have an obligation to for your roommate. Right. You just need them to pay rent. You gotta keep the baby going. Yeah, the baby pays no rent. So I decided, okay, I’m gonna chase this. And started going there and I, I got a full-time job at a bank in their compliance department. It turns out they really like hiring lawyers. And, I mean, I can’t speak to every bank, but a lot of people I went to law school with are in compliance at banks. And it is a cushy gig for anybody thinking of just like pulling the rip cord on stressful law practice. Cushy gig. And they give you way more money than you’re accustomed to for the amount of work that you’re expected to do. So big thumbs up to do that bank work. I’m gonna have to run that, you know, I got a friend Huey who owns a bank. I’ll ask him that question next time we chat. We’re really good friends. Huey, if you I know you’re probably listening. Maybe one day you’ll let me come into compliance. Shout out to Guarantee Bank. One of the great bank. But keep going. Nice. No, I love it. Plug them. And but it gave me all this space, to chase this other thing, to build it on nights and weekends. And because when I got off work, I wasn’t just wiped completely emotionally. And so I started building this and it takes me about two years to, to build it up to a point where I can then quit. I get enough clients and we’re growing and I’m making, not that much money, but enough. And I pulled the rip cord on March 2nd, 2020. Quit my job. What a great time. Yeah. I was like, I have made a huge mistake here. It was this little virus waiting around the corner. Super scary. It turned out it ended up being a really great year for my business because everybody went online. Yeah. So many people had to do business development differently. They all started podcast, great for me. Not great for the world. But then, you know, that’s the war story of how, how the company kind of came to be. And now we are, I think we probably manage around 45 shows. And that’s everything from firms with, you know, two or three attorneys, up to firms with 5,000 plus employees doing 3 billion a year. Which is incredible to me. To, to, to be able to work for some, some firms of that magnitude and be trusted to, to run their podcast initiatives. Firms that size, I gotta believe then you are managing some podcasts for some AmLaw and international type, you know, corporate and insurance defense type, big, big, big law firms. Is that right? I mean, some of the biggest in the world. Wow. That’s pretty awesome. And is your business solely focused, I’m assuming you’re solely in the law space, so you wouldn’t be taking on clients who wouldn’t be a law firm, right? So, I mean, we have a handful of clients that aren’t law firms. We have financial advisors, M&A firms. We just took on one that does, I can’t even remember what they do, but it’s some really niche financial stuff. And, we have, you know, we have a doctor’s office, but the way we got them was most of them were guests on our clients’ law firm podcasts. And they said, “Would you also do?” Yeah. Because ultimately the back end of what we do is very similar for almost anybody. And but from the law pod side, I learned in law, you know, what riches in the niches, right? It’s much easier to brand yourself if you’re the person who does X Y Z for these people. And I got a lot of pushback in the beginning when I was going with LawPods. Because, what, why are you narrowing yourself? Why are you narrowing yourself? But I really did believe, and I think I’ve been right, that you can go up a lot faster when you’re in a narrower space. Because people get to know you. This is the guy who does this for us. And you know, I speak their language. When I am on with an attorney, I understand what their unique challenges are, the things they can and can’t say. Like I know how it goes. But I also understand what they’re talking about, most of the time. Some of these big law firms start talking about stuff I’ve never even heard the words. But generally speaking, I understand who they are, and I’ve been able to brand myself. I truly, truly believe there’s no way. I land an AmLaw firm within a little over two years of being in business, if I’m not in that niche. Because that’s how I made it to them. That’s how I got in their ear, was I’m in that niche, and it just, one person heard me, another person heard me, and it kept going until somebody in the community for that big firm, was talked to one of their partners who was retiring and said, “Who do you know?” And he knew me, just from the community. This guy I know. And, and that got me in the door. And I don’t, I don’t think that happens if I’m just like Rob’s podcasts. Yeah, and that’s a simple, that’s a, you know, old an adage, marketing lesson, which is true, which is people don’t care what you say about you, they care about what other people say about you. And so it’s like referral marketing is king in that regard. And I’ve tried to I told somebody the other day, you know, Robert, it was somebody thinking about starting a podcast for their company and they’re like, “Oh, we’re gonna do everything in house.” And I’m like, “You’re not doing everything in house.” Like we have a, for example, we have the company we use is, you may know Walter and them at Third Wheel Media. They are I think really, similar to you, focus on financial and legal professionals. And they do just such a great job at, you know, managing the show cuts, doing the right out, editing, getting it on YouTube for us. And that is a really time intensive process. That somebody like you at LawPods or Third Wheel Media, these really good companies like you in the space, you know, you have really streamlined the process and really do that, from an externally excellent on a consistent basis. Talk a little bit about that for some of the people who may be thinking about doing everything in house. Like it’s, it’s really a mistake in my humble opinion, to try to do them. Because we still, and I know Katie’s gonna empathize with this, she’s sitting behind the camera over there. Even with an external vendor, doing all that, like the video cuts, the editing, all that stuff, we still have so much work in house on booking, on production setup, on, on making sure everything’s ready to go and logistics and then, I’ll kind of other stuff which happens, trying to manage a show internally. Yeah. It’s, that, that was one area where I saw it, having done one in my law firm, you know, started it back in 2016. I saw how much work it could be and how much work I was putting into it. And I thought, I, I did believe it was gonna be a good marketing tool. And I thought, well, if this turns out to be a good marketing tool, it’s gonna be a really bad use of in-house time to do it. Because at the time I was just doing the audio, wasn’t even getting into video yet. And we’ve taken over podcasts for more than one firm that was doing it in house. And they had assembled a team. And then the problem really arises when the, when somebody leaves. Now you’ve lost a key team member who was holding all the keys to your podcast and it’s not really the easiest knowledge to just understand, like, okay, what’s a hosting platform? How do I, how do I get on Apple podcasts? Like, it’s not as easy as one might think. And, you know, you lose a team member, but you want the podcast to keep going without, you know, disruption, what do you do? And that’s tough. So that kind of takes that part of it out of it. But also, if you’re doing everything from recording it, and you want to make sure that it’s recorded well, it sounds good. You’re doing the video, you want to make sure the video looks good. What camera do I use? What, oh, now the camera won’t work on my computer. How do I make that work? All of the little technical stuff, to then getting it recorded well, then you want to edit it. You want to make sure that if a guest has a ton of background noise, that they’re on a separate track, which you can then audio engineer, cut out some of the ums, the uz, the stutters that just take away from the listening experience. And then edit that video, slightly differently. Because you don’t want to cut every single in a video, it’s distracting. And getting all of that done well, putting your intros and outros, they’re mixed properly, so everything’s leveled, then drafting show notes, transcripts, publishing all of this to all the places that it needs to go, making sure it gets on Apple and YouTube, and then on the website properly. It’s a lot. Spoiler alert. And then clipping it into video clips and image quotes in vertical formats, square, landscape, getting them out on all your social media platforms. Even if you have two full-time people in house, the odds of getting two unicorns that can do all of that, really well. I’m not saying they don’t exist, but if somebody can do all of that, they should be expensive. And because in a company like mine, every single one of those tasks is a different person. Because I hire people who do audio engineering. And that’s what they do. That’s it. And then video editors, writers. And, and so everybody’s got their job and they do it really, really well. And that, you know, it’s that, that McDonald’s approach, right? Of this is how we do it, and everybody does it the same way, and everybody has their job. And, and that makes it a lot easier to, to get it going and ultimately, it ends up making it a lot cheaper too. I mean, even the clients for, you know, for what most agencies charge who are doing a really good job, you can usually get one really good employee for the price per year for the price of what you’re gonna pay for your entire podcast. So, really interesting discussion. Could you tell me one last question I had for you, Robert, before, we’re running out of time here, is, big picture, getting away from LawPods for one second and podcasting, what would you tell somebody who’s thinking about leaving law and going to do something different, then staying in law? What, what would your words of golden words of advice and suggestions be because you’ve done it successfully now. You’re doing something which isn’t law, but not the actual practice of law. Somebody who’s kind of in your same spot and thinking about that, what would you have? What would you have given advice was? I mean, if they’re at the point where they’re thinking about leaving, it, it, it’s probably too late at this point. It’s probably time to go. Because, I mean, to me, Almost like you had the party and you shouldn’t order that last bourbon. Yeah, you already know. You know, you’re looking around, you know. Because the best lawyers I know are the ones who are going to die at their desk. They can’t envision a life that isn’t advocating. It’s it’s all it they, they hit their desk and they feel the way that I feel when I hit my desk. I’m excited. I was out of the office a lot last week doing fun things. And but Saturday, I sat down and I went through my list of things that I was ready to do this week, the initiatives I’m working on. And I was excited. I love it. I love hitting my desk. And one of the things I tell people, one of the ways I know that I really like what I do, is I never know what time it is. In any given day, unless I have something coming up and then I get a reminder. Because I’m in it. I love the process. I love it. I, I, I would be devastated if I couldn’t do this anymore because I, I love it. It brings me so much fulfillment. But I’m really good at it. I’ve found this intersection of things I’m curious about, things that I have a certain natural proclivity for, and value in the marketplace. And they’ve all come together in this beautiful way. And I’m thankful that I was born in this generation and maybe not a hundred years ago where nobody cared how you felt or if you were happy. Get out there, figure out how to make a few dollars and get your family fed. That kind of thing. And, and so I, I see that and I have a lot of gratitude for it, but I also understand some people I think still believe that they’re in that hundred years ago mindset. Like that’s where they are. Of, I went to law school. I, you know, you just don’t quit. Like, yeah, it’s hard. I get it. It’s hard. Things are hard. Work sucks, right? That’s what I used to think. Work sucks. Of course work sucks. It’s work. And but that’s just not the world right now. There’s, if somebody like me, who, I mean, criminal justice, political science, law. I have no, I never took a marketing class. I never took communications. I, no, I, one business class, I took business law. If somebody like me can jump out and figure it out with the resources that are available, just out there in the world. Like I didn’t go back to school for any of this. I went to the school of Gary Vaynerchuk and Tony Robbins and EMyth revisited Michael Gerber. I read every book I could get my hands on. And, but and then I just did trial and error. I just figured it out because I wanted it. If I can do that, I would say almost anybody could do it. And so I, I think that for a lot of people, especially people who were able to make it into the world of law, they’re gonna be resourceful enough that if, if they are the kind of person who wants to run their own thing, because I think you look at the EMyth, it’s not for everybody. Not everybody can sit in that chair. There’s, you know, I can’t imagine sitting in the chair where people tell me what to do. That’s not my life. But for people that want to sit in this chair, it’s, it’s very doable. The resources are there. And, like, for somebody who’s doing something they hate and they’re overwhelmed and they can’t stand it. There is a lot of ways to make money out there doing a lot of interesting things that will bring you a bunch of fulfillment. So, I don’t know, I can’t imagine a world where I don’t jump. A lot of what you said really resonated with me just because, you know, two years ago, I was in the middle of a 60 or 70 case litigation docket and managing cases. And, that’s not what I do anymore. And I’m so happy right now I’m managing the processes and systems in the business and creating a business where, there is a culture of allowing A-players, really people with talents and different areas that our business needs to excel at and succeeding and feeling safe and letting their skill set really come out and help the business grow and develop. And, you know, that, that, I didn’t think, no, when I went to law school, I’d be there. I always just a vision, I’d be practicing law. And it didn’t really work out that way for me, but I’m really happy it didn’t. Because I’m really enjoying, like allowing a place for lawyers to practice in a different way. You still have the anxiety and pressures of deadlines and practice here, no matter anywhere you’re at. But there is a way if you have a firm that has the systems and processes and procedures that are usually right, many more times than not, it can make the practice much more manageable and less anxiety induced and ridden. And, it’s been a great journey for me and it kind of resonated with me. Some of the stuff that you said and so I’m, really cool to be able to talk to you about it today. Why don’t you tell our listeners, Robert, a little bit about where they can find LawPods if they’re interested in doing a consult with you or learning about your company and how you may be able to help their businesses. Sure. Type LawPods anywhere. Really, like, type it anywhere and you’re gonna find us. So you asked SEO companies doing their job. Yeah, well, and it’s just, it’s, I don’t have a lot of nobody’s really competing with me on that name, but it’s also, you know, LawPods.com. And, and that’s like our name across social media. It was very important to me when we started out that we had something easy to, that we had a name that made sense, but also easy to find. Not, no dashes in it and in a bunch of superfluous nonsense. So, me, really LawPods anywhere. LawPods.com. And also I’m active on LinkedIn, which if you’d have told me 10 years ago, I would have been like, you’re crazy. That’s where I am. That’s where I spend my time. We’re gonna laugh together. Yeah. Okay. I can’t, I’m trying to find Katie’s eyes back there. Katie and Tiffany are both our CMO and our marketing director, always scolding me because I am always complaining like a baby about having to post on LinkedIn because I feel very, like, insecure about it. But I’m like, posting on LinkedIn. And 10 years ago, if you’d have asked me if I’d be posting on LinkedIn today, I’d say you’re a freaking lunatic. No, I wouldn’t be posting on LinkedIn. Who the hell goes on LinkedIn? Apparently a lot of people now. A lot of people. Yeah, I do a lot of my networking there. And so that’s a good place to get up with me. Just, send me a connect. Happy to talk about anything, if, and I tell people, like, I’m not, I am very much a, un-salesy type of person. I’m not here to look to give you a hard sell. If somebody just wants to chat about their podcast and things they can do themselves while they’re doing it, I like the process. I said that earlier. I like talking about it. So I’m happy to give somebody a shout out, talk about it, kick the tires on anything. And also, happy to talk about getting out of law. I, I’ll plug Alexandra Davis, just wrote a book called Pivot, about lawyers that have taken non-traditional paths. And she featured me in the book and it was a, it was really cool. So that’s, that’s a, that’s one of those places that you can look for ideas. The former lawyer podcast is another. I’ve been on that podcast as well. But it’s just people who used to be lawyers, doing different things. So there’s a lot of ideas there. Interesting. Awesome, awesome. Well, I’ve really enjoyed this discussion, Robert. Really appreciate it having you on the show. If any of our listeners are more interested in both transitioning out of law and or learning a bit about what LawPods does and adding them potentially to your business and help growing your marketing and branding and getting your own podcast setup. Please check out LawPods, at lawpods.com. And also Robert, as he said, is across all the social stacks, whether it be Instagram, Facebook, or and or LinkedIn. So Robert, once again, thank you for being a guest. We’ve really enjoyed chatting with you. This has been a great episode of the Overruled podcast, brought to you by the Scott Vicknair Law firm. Once again, thank you to all of our listeners for following along on this journey with us. And we can’t wait to talk to you next time. Scott Vicknair, injury attorneys. We fight for the win. Information is for illustrative purposes only and does not constitute tax, investment, or legal advice. Always consult with a qualified investment, legal, or tax professional before taking any action.